SanVi Blog

Here's a conversation I've had on Facebook the past couple of days with a friend from my fundie past, 25 years ago. I think I nailed him with my final reply, let me know what you think in the comments. Also tips on what other things I could write back to him in future (if he ever contacts me again).

KR 07 November at 13:31
Dear Jim,

I hope you are having a wonderful day in Holland.

We are staying busy here.

Working on my message for tomorrow and as part of that I did some research on modern day scientists who believe in God. (You had mentioned that only scientists in centuries past believed in God.)

Here are the three most modern and very famous scientists who more than once publicly stated that they believed in God.

William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907) [....] He was a very committed Christian, who was certainly more religious than the average for his era.

Max Planck (1858-1947)[...] In his 1937 lecture "Religion and Naturwissenschaft," Planck expressed the view that God is everywhere present, and held that "the holiness of the unintelligible Godhead is conveyed by the holiness of symbols." Atheists, he thought, attach too much importance to what are merely symbols.

Albert Einstein (1879-1955) [...] The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."

Jim Turner 07 November at 13:57
Hi K,

I never said that 'only' scientists in the past believed in God, that would be patently untrue (Francis Collins & John Polkinghorne, to name but 2 Nobel Laureates, spring to mind).

It's interesting that you mention that Planck's god and Einstein's god were not personal gods.If a god's not personal, then you might as well call what you believe in 'the laws of nature' or 'the universe' or 'a sense of wonder', all 3 of which I think better represent at least what Einstein meant by 'god'.

Dawkins tackled this very well in the God Delusion. I finally got my copy back, would you like me to send it to you?

all the best,
Jim

KR 09 November at 18:15
Dear Jim, you are welcome to send Dawkins' Delusion to me. My address is found at our web site at: www.rxxx.org. May I add that I am hopeful that you come to, at the least, a deist conception of God, which is what Einstein held to. He was not an atheist. Are you more of a deist (like Einstein) than an atheist? And if not, why is that?

I did not express myself clearly in my earlier posting. I was trying to note that in a previous letter you had taken issue that the scientists I had presented were from many centuries ago, so I found you more current ones.

Jim Turner 09 November at 19:20
Hey K,
I do not have a belief in any gods, which is the dictionary definition of an a-theist. I don't rule out the possibility that a god may exist, but all the evidence so far points to the contrary. Some people would call this an agnostic position, I don't mind what label people feel like they need to put on it. Huxley (as quoted by Dan Barker) defined agnosticism as 'the refusal to take as fact any statement for which there is insufficient evidence', and on the basis of that definition, most atheists are in fact both atheists and agnostics.
I'm pretty open and forward with my atheism, which some people would even call an 'anti-theist' position, although this is pretty much a fabricated category.
I don't have much respect for the deist position, it seems like a cop-out that allows for a lot of semi-new age waffle about spirituality, while taking away or diluting the drive to find scientific answers to the big questions of the origin of the universe, life on Earth, etc.
take care, Jim

KR 09 November at 20:48
I must say Jim, that I am very saddened by your point of view. I wish I could help in some way but I obviously have not up to this point. I am praying for you. I cannot help you but God can.

Jim Turner 09 November at 14:42
Well K, I think it says more about you that you think I need help. What I've consistently told you is that I'm the happiest and most satisfied I've ever been in my life. Unfortunately your Jesus glasses won't allow you to see people other than as the saved and the unsaved, who need help. Whereas in fact it's people like you who really need help, to set you free from prehistoric superstitions which are keeping the world from progressing and causing daily untold misery with bombings, mass child rape, stonings of adulterers, forced marriages, genital mutilations, child abuse by lying to them about hell, etc. etc. etc. But you just keep on praying, K. It's the best way to do nothing and still think you're helping.
All the best, Jim

UPDATE:
KR
Dear Jim, I agree with you that there are many terrible things done in the name of religion. Your list is accurate and of course could be lengthened considerably. I would like to make one small additon to it. Millions have been put to death in the name of atheism (in its governmental form of communism and fascism), which is a religion in its own right - a set of beliefs that define the world and guide our actions. You have adopted that religion and it defines your world and guides your actions. It is not a question of religion vs. no religion, but simply which religion. You have chosen yours, and you are happy with it. if happiness and satisfaction were the only criteria for life, then I would have to say that you are doing well and I would be the last to step and say, "JIM! Why don't you be miserable for a while!" But happiness or contentment are not always reliable indicators of what is really going on. I have worked with cows in two dairies. The cows are content with their lot. They get regular food, shelter, etc. They are chewing their cud contentedly right up to the time they are loaded in the butcher's wagon and carted off. The rich man in Luke 16 was happy up to the day he died, by all indications, but he did go to hell. I imagine Stalin was a happy man -- he had all he wanted out of life. He was the dictator of the largest country in the world. He defeated all his opponents, and died in his own bed in his old age following a stroke. But if there is a hell, and Jesus says there is, surely he is there and I doubt he is happy now. The things I believe, and which about 2 billion others on this planet believe, are based on history, archaeology, science and biblical prophecy. It is well established. Greater men than you or I, as noted recently, have looked into these things and concluded that Christianity is all that Jesus said it is. It is not religious superstition. I think in all fairness the amount of evidence FOR Christianity is far far more extensive and tested than the amount of evidence for your chosen faith of atheism. Pound for pound, a rational person (and I know you are in most things) would have to conclude that Christianity is true. I don't know what your experience was of Christianity. Perhaps all it was was membership in a social group with Christian values, with attractive and interesting underpinnings. I can't say. Only you (and God) can answer that. It that is all it was, I can understand your disillusionment.

Jim Turner 09 November at 23:07
Wow. I don't know whether to laugh or get really angry at the dairy analogy. Your claim that Stalin committed his crimes 'in the name of atheism' is bullshit and you know it. Your reference to biblical prophesy is rather amusing though. The thought that the New Testament, with all its contradictions, might have been written - decades after the events it describes - by men with an agenda, and that 'fulfilling' various OT prophesies formed part of that agenda, has apparently never crossed your mind.

But what is starting to really annoy me is that you know very well that I had all the opportunities I would ever need to sift through all this information 25 years ago. I would have thought that the fact that I accepted it then, to the extent that I took a 4-month residential Discipleship Training Course and then signed up for 2 years on staff at YWAM, and then after careful thought rejected it 4 years later would be enough information for you to realise that I'm not coming back.

Would it help if I rejected the holy spirit? I reject the holy spirit! Fuck the holy spirit! There, now I'm guaranteed to go to hell and you can stop trying to convert me. Of course now you can't be yoked together with me either. Man, I really feel sorry for you K, you can't have any normal relationships with people without thinking all the time 'how can I convert them'? and injecting that into every interaction you have with them.

KR
Dear Jim, thank you for the additional information on your time with YWAM. I did not know you were on staff. That still does not tell me where you were spiritually. There have even been clergymen (John Wesley comes to mind) who had not had a real life-changing born again experience. But for you, let us assume that you did really know the Lord. I have not given up hope for you just the same. The fact that you are angry gives me hope! A really "beyond the pale" atheist would not be bothered. He is dead inside and that is it. You have shown, in my view, a fear of looking at the evidence (e.g., the short booklet I wrote on the 5 proofs of God's existence.) This and remarks like it, and your desire not to meet with me, show me that you know in your heart Jesus is alive and you don't want to deal with it. So...in a strange way, there is hope. As to the prophecies, look at Isa. 11:11-12 about the restoration of Israel. A prophecy made about 2700 years in advance. This could not have been manipulated. It is one more of many evidences of a supernatural reality. And there are many just like that.
As to whether or not I have atheist friends, yes I do. Can I speak to them without mentioning God? Yes I can and do. Should I not be concerned about what will happen to them after they die? Of course I should. You would be too, I hope. I don't imagine your compassion has shriveled to the point that you do not care about others. WHat kind of friend would it be that would not care enough about someone to save them from hell? If I truly believe in hell, and I and billions of people do, I would be the worst kind of hypocrite to do or say nothing to save them, including you. I like talking to you and I can indeed speak without talking about God, but you must be honest here and admit that it is you that brings up atheism most of the time. Your Facebook is fuller of atheism than mine is of Christianity. You are an evangelistic atheist, crusading to convert people. You do this because your actions follow your convictions. Mine do as well.

Jim Turner 10 November at 11:00
I not only read your '5 proofs', I rebutted them in detail one by one, giving references. I've reposted them below, as you seem to have forgotten. A selective memory is a useful thing, eh. The only person I'm annoyed at is you for a) not listening and b) using pathetic analogies like the dairy farm. (On the other hand, your 'you may be happy now, but just wait!' comment made me laugh out loud, although admittedly not in a good way.) So making me increasingly irritated with you gives you hope, interesting! I knew your concept of relationships was warped, I didn't know by how much.

I bring up atheism all the time because I believe the world would be a much better place if people abandoned their primitive beliefs, and stopped telling other people how to live, who they should have sex with, why they should mutilate, maim and kill their fellow man, etc.

How you can equate the establishment of a political state with the name 'Israel' with the 12 tribes of the bible is beyond me. The only thing they share is a name, and a prediliction for violent conquest. Meanwhile 'this generation', in the Hal Lindsay interpretation of end times events, i.e. the adults who were alive in 1948, can by no stretch of the imagination be deemed to be still alive. Although maybe it will take another 10-15 years before you lot give up on that particular interpretation and have to come up with a new one.

We've had a nerve-wracking week with various efforts to get money transferred to the notary's for the house purchase going astray, until finally the bank sent the notary's a fax this morning to confirm that the money is on its way. Only the cynics among you will conclude that this was only done in order to hold the money in an interest-free current account for another couple of days. Not nice, when there's a penalty of 10% of the purchase price hanging over your head if it doesn't go through! Everything should therefore go ahead as planned tomorrow... and I will be very relieved when it does.

We took the kids to meet their new headmaster the other day, and have a tour around the school. The school seems perfect for them, each class has kids from 2 or 3 different years in together, which I think will help Jamie get up to speed on the things she's behind on and keep ahead on the things she's good at. We didn't get off to a great start with the head though - we couldn't work out if we'd done something wrong or whether he simply has an antipathetic personality. If so he's possibly in the wrong career. Fingers crossed that that will work out ok.

Yesterday we took our two and Frank to the very last theatre show ever by a man who used to do a very popular kids show in Holland in the 70s and 80s, and which all the kids have watched multiple repeats of. (He's still performing in other shows, but this was billed as the last ever show of this character). He's a Brian Cant lookalike for those of you who remember Play Away. The show was targeted at both the previous generation of viewers and the new one, so it was an interesting mix. Danny got bored towards the end, but that's par for the course. When we got home he fell fast asleep on the couch so it must have been tiring at least!

Last night I finally met up with Mike, Johan, John and John's new girlfriend Julija at a concert. First gig for me in over a year, it was good to be back. We all had a good natter before the gig started. They will be coming on Saturday to help with the move, along with Pascal and possibly Kelly.

Today Jamie went to school with Majo, and by the sound of it had a great time. Cora and Anja looked after Danny while Carmen and I went off to buy - sigh - bedroom furniture. The ultimate torture, and you get to pay a hefty bill at the end of it! And Madonn' what a bill... Well I guess I should look at it this way, spread over 10 years it's less than the price of a half pint of Grolsch a day.